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Departure by Journey

Album Reviews 1980 Albums , 2015 Reviews , Album Reviews by Ric Albano , American Artists , California Artists , Gregg Rollie , Journey 1

Buy Departure

Following the band’s 1978 album Infinity , drummer Aynsley Dunbar was replaced by accomplished jazz drummer Steve Smith . In 1979, the group recorded the LP Evolution , which included the group’s first Top 20 single, but was less than satisfying for the band production-wise.

Former engineers Geoff Workman and Kevin Elson stepped up to assume producer duties on Departure . The band was well-stocked entering the studio, with nearly twenty new songs composed. Ultimately, they recorded a dozen songs for this album with a few excess tracks saved for other projects. These included the track “Little Girl”, which landed on the future soundtrack Dream, After Dream and the excellent song “Natural Thing”, a soulful rock/waltz co-written by bassist Ross Valory . Armed with all this compositional ammunition, the group was set to record most of the material live in the studio, which gave it and edge compared to the more refined work they did both before and after this record.

The album begins with its most popular and sustaining track, “Any Way You Want It”. The song was written by lead vocalist Steve Perry and guitarist Neal Schon and it peaked at #23 on the Billboard pop charts. More importantly, this opening track sets the pace for this album where Perry and Schon shine brightest throughout. Schon achieves this hard rock bliss through his potent and perfected rock riffs with melodic distortion, while Perry’s vocals use heavy reverb to add to the majesty. While the opener exists mainly in the stratosphere, “Walks Like a Lady” comes back to ground level while being just as entertaining. On this track, all five members of the band shine equally, from the skip-along bass of Valory to the fine drum shuffle by Smith, to the deep Hammond B3 chords by Rolie, to multiple bluesy riffs by Schon, to the fantastic melodies by Perry.

“Someday Soon” is the first of two rock duets, with Rolie and Perry trading vocal lines throughout this one. The mesmerizing rhythm carries song along at a steady pace and, after Schon’s first true guitar lead of the album, the song enters into a strong, majestic outro, led by a rich vocal chorus and more intense rock elements. “People and Places” is the closest to a prog rock track on the album, especially with the multiple voices in the intro cascade. On this second duet, Rolie takes the lead during the intense verses while Perry handles the uplifting choruses. The song has an English folk feel through its first half but then evolves into a theatrical hard rock track, closing with Rolie’s distant Hammond fading away. Filled with so many great little sound riffs, “Precious Time” starts with just Schon’s rapidly strummed electric guitar accompanying Perry’s fast-paced melodies until Rolie joins in with an impressive blues harmonica through the second verse. Eventually, the rhythm section comes in to make it a more steady hard rock song, ending with a decent blues jam led by the harmonica once again.

The short title piece begins the final progression of the album. Schon’s “Departure” is not really a true track, just some harmonics above seemingly random soundscapes. The next two short but satisfying ballads preview a vital aspect of Journey’s albums in the near future. “Good Morning Girl” is led by Schon’s finger-picked electric accompanied by a smooth Mellotron with differing strings and Perry’s melodic vocals. A very simple structure, with just verses at different rotating keys. “Stay Awhile” is like an old fashioned rock slow dance, but this one is almost completely led by the fine vocal melodies of Perry. The album closer, “Homemade Love”, contains an interesting off-beat by Smith with Perry’s nearly-scat vocals and Schon reserving one of his finest guitar leads for the album’s conclusion.

Departure went triple-platinum in sales and Journey rode this success with a major tour. This tour spawned the follow-up live album Captured , which was another major success for the group later in 1980. However, Rolie had become tired of life on the road and decided to leave the band and pursue solo projects.

Part of Classic Rock Review’s celebration 1980 albums.

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Journey's 'Departure' | RVM [Radio.Video.Music] March 14, 2023 @ 9:47 am

[…] Classic Rock ReviewArmed with all this compositional ammunition, the group was set to record most of the material live in the studio, which gave it and edge compared to the more refined work they did both before and after this record. […] […]

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Journey - Precious Time Lyrics

Artist: Journey

Album: Miscellaneous

Genre: Rock

I was captured by the light of a wayward smile When she said to me, "Move slowly son and touch the sky Very soon you'll see, ooh, how precious time placed it's hand on me Ooh, how precious time, how it rescued me" See the line of sight inside your mind, but from where I don't know And the tales that are left behind, left for all to grow Ooh, precious time placed its hand on me Ooh, precious time, how it rescued me Ooh, how it rescued me, how it rescued me Ooh, there's a place in time not far from here, a place we all could see So if you're lookin' for a better day, touch the sky and see Oh, precious time placed its hand on me Oh, precious time, how it rescued me Be the soldiers for your lives my friends, fight for all to see It's the only way to catch the sun, it's the only way you'll see Oh, how precious time placed its hand on me, yeah precious time How it rescued me, baby, baby it rescued me Oh, there's a place in time not far from here, a place we all could see So if you're lookin' for a better day, touch the sky and see Oh, precious time placed its hand on me Oh, precious time, ooh how it rescued me, me

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Precious Time Lyrics

Original Album Classics  by  Journey

Song   ·   4:49   ·   English

(P) 1980 SONY BMG MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT

I was captured by the light of a wayward smile When she said to me Move slowly son and touch the sky Very soon you′ll see Ooh, how precious time placed its hand on me Ooh, how precious time, how it rescued me See the line of sight in side your mind But from where I don't know And the tales that are left behind Left for all to grow Ooh, precious time placed its hand on me Ooh, precious time, how it rescued me Ooh, how it rescued me, how it rescued me Ooh, there′s a place in time not far from here A place we all could see So if you're lookin' for a better day Touch the sky and see Oh,oh,oh, precious time placed its hand on me Oh,oh,oh, precious time, how it rescued me Be the soldiers for your lives my friends Fight for all to see It′s the only way to catch the sun It′s the only way you'll see Oh, how precious time placed its hand on me Yeah,precious time,how it rescued me Baby, baby, it rescued me Oh, there′s a place in time not far from here A place we all could see So if you're lookin′ for a better day Touch the sky and see Oh,oh,oh, precious time placed its hand on me Oh,oh,oh, precious time, how it rescued me.me

Writer(s): Stephen Ray Perry, Neal Joseph Schon<br>Lyrics powered by www.musixmatch.com

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'MJ: The Musical' captures the magnetism of the King of Pop

• Jacquinn Sinclair

In the futuristic video for “ Can You Feel It ,” The Jacksons sang of unity and triumph as hologram-like beings tromping through a desert landscape, outer space, and above a city amid flames and waves of water. At one point, glowing gold glitter fell from a hand. I was mesmerized by the video as a kid, mainly because of Michael Jackson, later dubbed the King of Pop. The video was an early nod to the cinematic music video premieres to come, such as “Remember the Time.”

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That same magnetism and enchantment that left fans spellbound at the 2001 concert was captured by Broadway in Boston’s electrifying production of “ MJ: The Musical ” (through July 7). The incredibly talented cast — three of whom portray Michael Jackson at different points in his life — explored the star’s life through song and hinted at his troubles around the costly 1992 Dangerous World Tour. The Tony Award-winning show, which flashes back and forth in time, has a book by Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Lynn Nottage and is choreographed and directed by Christopher Wheeldon.

Jackson grew up in showbiz with his domineering father, Joseph Jackson (an excellent Devin Bowles who also doubles as tour manager Rob), who ushered most of his kids into the spotlight. This exciting jukebox musical, expertly directed by Wheeldon, shows how that relationship shaped Michael Jackson’s work ethic and packs a dizzying number of hits into the show. It also gives audiences a glimpse into how hard Michael and his brothers worked to attain and maintain fame.

Bane Griffith, Brandon Lee Harris (a graduate of Berklee College of Music) and Roman Banks were all fantastic as Michael Jackson as a child, during the Victory tour era in the 1980s, and around the Dangerous Tour, respectively. (Griffith shares the role of Little Michael with Josiah Benson. Griffith was playing the role when I saw the show.)

Part of what makes the show so much fun to watch, apart from the magnificent dancing and singing, is the work of the lighting (Natasha Katz), sound (Gareth Owen), projection (Peter Nigrini) and set (Derek McLane). Prime examples of this were the frightening environment for “Thriller,” with red lights, fog and zombies (which made my seatmate jump), a gritty street with neon signage into the infamous Studio 54 and through the ornate “Dangerous” set, among others.

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Michael Jackson’s career spanned multiple decades and spawned estimated album sales in the millions. His most popular solo album, “Thriller,” had seven hit singles according to Apple Music, won seven Grammys, and is currently certified 33 times platinum by the Recording Association Industry of America, according to Billboard.com.

Despite his success, his legacy has been marked by controversy . But in the play, the eldest Michael Jackson hopes that no matter what, people will remember his music. For some, separating the artist from the art might be hard to do. (Read WBUR’s take on both sides of that argument here and here .)

As I headed out of the theater after the final scene, the band continued to play MJ’s hits.  I spotted a small kid with glittering gloves on in the hallway, and I locked eyes with a theater worker who danced with me from across the room as I inched my way down the corridor and sang along to the music.

Perhaps the entertainer got his wish after all.

“ MJ: The Musical ” runs through July 7 at the Citizens Bank Opera House.

• 11 theater productions to see this summer
• A.R.T.'s 'Gatsby' is a shimmering spectacle but lacks emotional resonance
• Taking on mental illness, Central Square Theater's 'Next to Normal' soars

Jacquinn Sinclair Performing Arts Writer Jacquinn Sinclair is a freelance arts and entertainment writer whose work has appeared in Performer Magazine, The Philadelphia Tribune and Exhale Magazine.

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Precious Time

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Journey is an American rock band formed in 1973 in San Francisco by former members of Santana and Frumious Bandersnatch. The band has gone through several phases; its strongest commercial success occurred between 1978 and 1987, after which it temporarily disbanded. During that period, the band released a series of hit songs, including 1981's "Don't Stop Believin'", which became in 2009 the top-selling catalog track in iTunes history. Its parent studio album, Escape, the band's eighth and most successful, reached No. 1 on the Billboard 200 and yielded another of their most popular singles, "Open Arms". Its 1983 follow-up, Frontiers, was almost as successful in the United States, reaching No. 2 and spawning several successful singles; it broadened the band's ap… more »

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Written by: NEAL JOSEPH SCHON, STEPHEN RAY PERRY

Lyrics © Wixen Music Publishing, WORDS & MUSIC A DIV OF BIG DEAL MUSIC LLC

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• #1 Any Way You Want It
• #2 Walks Like a Lady
• #3 Someday Soon
• #4 People and Places
• #5 Precious Time
• #6 Where Were You
• #7 I'm Cryin'
• #8 Line of Fire
• #9 Departure
• #10 Good Morning Girl
• #11 Stay Awhile
• #12 Homemade Love
• #13 Natural Thing [*]
• #14 Little Girl [*]

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Inside Trump’s Search for a Vice President

Donald j. trump’s list of potential running mates has focused on a set of loyal campaigners..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

From “The New York Times,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[THEME MUSIC]

The makeup of the 2024 presidential race has felt inevitable from the start, with one notable exception — Donald Trump’s choice of a running mate. Today, my colleague, Mike Bender, examines the top contenders for the job and what choosing them would tell us about Trump himself in this campaign. It’s Thursday, June 13.

Mike, somehow this is your first appearance on the show. So welcome, at long last, to “The Daily.”

Thank you for having me.

It’s my pleasure. You have spent the past few weeks trying to get inside Donald Trump’s search for a vice president. And what is so unusual about this search is that we already know what Trump wanted in a vice president from his 2016 campaign when he picked Mike Pence.

And we know how badly that all ended, with Trump openly denouncing Pence for not helping him overturn his 2020 election loss and reportedly endorsing calls for Pence’s death, his hanging, at the Capitol on January 6th. So with all of that behind us, what is Trump looking for this time around?

Yeah, I mean, the search is very different from where he was at this time eight years ago. Eight years ago, he was a first-time candidate. And he needed credibility with the evangelical community. I mean, remember, Donald Trump is a thrice-married playboy from New York, whose sex life was splashed across the New York tabloids.

Adding Mike Pence to the ticket gave him a lot of credibility with evangelicals and with establishment Republicans. Pence was a governor of Indiana and had been a former congressman. He provided a sort of port of entry for these folks into Trump world and settled a lot of them down. It’s a very different calculus this time around. Trump believes voters are going to make their decision based on the top of the ticket, not the running mate.

Based on Trump himself.

Based on Trump himself, and the fact that we have two incumbents effectively running. Everyone who’s going to vote in this election has opinions formed about Biden and Trump. There’s really no one that he can add to the ticket that is going to make a giant difference or going to persuade people in a major way to come on board. And he’s probably right about that.

So in a way, you’re saying Trump’s search for a number two is defined by what it’s not focused on, which is, he’s not trying to solve a political problem through his vice-presidential pick.

Yeah, that’s right. He’s not giving a lot of value to a political upside of a candidate. There was a lot of chatter early on, you remember, about maybe adding a woman to the ticket. Trump has hemorrhaged support from suburban women for eight years.

And there was a thought that if he could find a strong woman in a governor’s office or in Congress to add to the ticket, that she could help persuade some of these folks back to Trump’s side. But my reporting here is that there were some women in consideration at the very beginning stages of this process. But he hasn’t seriously considered a woman for this job in quite a while now.

Fascinating, OK. So we’ve been focused a lot, Mike, on what Trump is not focused on in his VP search. Let’s turn to what he is putting a lot of weight on as he searches for a number two.

Well, right now, my reporting is that the biggest factor, the biggest through line through some of his top-tier candidates are folks I’m calling “do no harm” candidates.

Hm, what do you mean by that?

The best example of this is Kristi Noem and what not to do. Kristi Noem is the governor of South Dakota. She has long been a rising star in the party. She’s joined Trump on the campaign trail several times, very much wanted this job. But —

Governor Kristi Noem has had, let’s call it, a tough time lately with that story that just won’t go away.

It all came crashing down a couple of months ago when she put a book out —

It includes a bizarre story about her shooting and killing her dog.

— detailing how she dragged her 14-month-old dog Cricket out to her gravel pit and shot it dead.

After killing her dog, she says she also killed their goat.

What the hell was South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem thinking?

This set off a firestorm in the media —

What a charming anecdote to include in a book. Who was her editor?

— where even Fox News hosts couldn’t get enough of this —

And your new book is called “No Going Back.”

You include a story about shooting your dog.

— and kept asking her —

Did the dog story come up in a conversation with Trump?

I talk to President Trump all the time.

About the dog?

About a lot of things. And right now —

— to explain Cricket, to explain the dog.

Did you bring up the dog with Trump?

Enough, Stewart. This interview is ridiculous, what you are doing right now.

I don’t think so.

So you need to stop. It is.

To her great frustration.

And to the great frustration of Trump. He was telling people that he did not want to be out answering questions about a vice-presidential candidate who shot their dog. It even became kind of gallows humor for him at some point. Randomly in conversations, he would ask people, well, have you shot your dog? He would end conversations telling people, make sure you don’t shoot your dog.

So this is an example of something Trump does not want to deal with on the campaign trail. That probably goes for just about any presidential candidate. But what is particularly important for Trump right now is that his plate is full of distractions.

He was just convicted of 34 felonies in New York and has a litany of other legal problems he’s facing. So the most important thing for him right now is a vice-presidential candidate who is a disciplined campaigner and can go out there and not cause any more unwanted distractions for his campaign.

All right, so besides, do me no harm, where else is Trump putting his focus in a VP search?

Yeah, the eventual VP is going to have to meet Trump’s prime-time reality TV show version of being out of central casting. And what I mean by that in this context is he wants someone who can go on television and defend him ably and effectively. The other thing that’s very interesting to me is that the former president gives outsized importance to debate performance.

He believes that he won the election in 2016 in large part because of his own performance in the debates against Hillary Clinton. And for that reason, since then, really, he’s felt like debates can be determinative and wants someone who he feels comfortable can go on television and hold his own against Kamala Harris, a seasoned politician and former prosecutor.

So whoever Trump picks is going to have to be able to hold his own in this sort of arena. But it’s always a fine line with Trump. They’re going to have to perform well, be effective, but not effective enough where they start to approach Trump’s spotlight.

Hm, say more about that.

Yeah, I mean, this is a president who puts a very high value on loyalty. But it’s a very unique twist on loyalty. He has a very specific definition. The, sort of, first rule of proving loyalty to Trump is not to overshadow him. He doesn’t want someone out there who he feels like is trying to leverage his political brand. Trump does not really want a successor here.

A lot of presidential nominees will pick someone who can help build the party, particularly in a second term. The attention naturally turns to the vice president and who’s coming next. Trump has shown little interest in that. So while he wants someone who will be a great presence on TV and on the campaign trail, that running mate better be good, but not too good.

So in summary, Trump’s VP search goes something like this. ‘I don’t really care if you win me a key voting bloc. Don’t cause me problems. And while I want you to be able to wow an audience, you can’t wow them more than me.’

That’s absolutely right. And based on those principles, his team has actually put out a pretty extensive list of Republicans who they are vetting for the job right now.

[VIOLIN MUSIC]

But my reporting is that this list is a little wider than the folks who Trump is really considering. His team is trying to build drama and suspense and also give him some room to change his mind before he officially makes his pick at the Republican National Convention in July.

But at this moment, based on my reporting, there are three people who Trump is seriously considering for his next vice president.

We’ll be right back.

So, Mike, tell us about these top three contenders at this moment for Trump’s vice-presidential slot and how Trump is thinking about each of them.

Yeah, one we can start with is the senator from Ohio, JD Vance.

Despite all outward appearances, I’m a cultural outsider. I didn’t come from the elites.

Most listeners will probably remember JD Vance as the guy who burst onto the national scene with a book about his time growing up in Ohio —

I came from a Southern Ohio steel town. And it’s a town that’s really struggling in a lot of ways, in ways that are indicative of the broader struggles of America’s working class.

— that sort of explained the forgotten man and woman in America right at the time that Trump was leveraging that idea to become president of the United States.

Here with me is JD Vance, author of “Hillbilly Elegy.”

JD has been unlocking the mysteries to Donald Trump’s appeal.

JD Vance went on a national book tour. He was on television, on podcasts, talking about his book —

Donald Trump, if nothing else, is relatable to the average working-class American because he speaks off the cuff. Even if, you know, half of the things that he says don’t make any sense or a quarter of the things that he says are offensive, there’s something —

— but also talking pretty negatively about Donald Trump.

I can’t stomach Trump. I think that he’s noxious and is leading the white working class to a very dark place. And ultimately —

I mean, he was really scathing in how he depicted Donald Trump as a — effectively a con artist who was taking advantage of the people that he was writing about to fuel his political rise —

Look, I wasn’t a big Trump guy in 2016, but I think he did a good job. I think —

— until he changed his mind on Trump.

That’s why I supported him in 2020. And I think the recognition that I changed my mind is one of the reasons why the president came and endorsed me. I think it was helpful —

And that comes a few years later when Vance decides to run for Senate in 2022.

I actually aligned with the America First movement on the core issues.

By then, he had come, you know, 180 degrees on Trump.

Trump was right that we need to make things in this country again so that we’re self-sufficient —

And this works for Vance. He wins Trump’s endorsement, beats a pretty crowded field for the Republican nomination in Ohio, and wins election in 2022, which, if you remember, it was a pretty tough year for Trump endorsements.

A lot of Trump picks in big states lost. And JD Vance was sort of the crown jewel of that election for the former president.

So a rather convenient transformation from Trump critic to Trump fan results in JD Vance winning a seat in the US Senate.

That’s absolutely right. And he has become one of Trump’s fiercest defenders in the Senate.

Support the president. Volunteer for him. Donate for him. And please, for the love of god, vote for him in November because, Jesse —

And he’s a constant presence on the media circuit.

Number one, I’m here for the simple reason to show support for a friend. I think this trial is absolutely ridiculous. I think it’s a sham prosecution.

Most recently, he was in Manhattan, sitting with Trump in the courtroom.

I think this is disgraceful. I don’t care what you call it.

That Trump is disgraceful, is that what you’re saying?

I think this proceeding, this legal proceeding, is disgraceful.

And then fighting for Trump, defending him, and criticizing the prosecution in front of the TV cameras afterward.

I don’t care what you call this, but this is not the America that I know and love. Why aren’t we talking about inflation, Wolf? Why aren’t we talking about Biden’s wide-open Southern border?

We’re talking about history.

This entire trial was cooked up to distract from Joe Biden’s failures.

With all due respect —

This is exactly what Trump wants in a vice president. Vance is maybe the best in this top tier at defending Trump publicly. He knows when to become a fire-breathing ideologue. He knows when to turn the temperature down and become self-effacing and sort of brush off tough questions.

Got it. So he’s definitely got the “very good on TV” box checked. And as you said earlier in our conversation, that’s just essential.

Yeah, absolutely. But I do think, when it comes to Senator Vance, some of these strengths could be risks for him when it comes to making Trump’s ticket. He is very ambitious. And he is very young. If a vice president Vance is sworn in next year, there will be immediate speculation about his potential running in 2028 as a president.

Ah, so you’re saying he runs the risk of overshadowing Trump, which is a cardinal sin in Trump’s book.

Yeah, that’s right. And right now, in my reporting, that’s a strike against Vance when it comes to VP contention.

OK, so, Mike, who’s next on the list of Trump’s top-three contenders at the moment?

Next on this list is someone you remember well, Michael, Senator Marco Rubio from Florida.

Yeah, you were pretty key in covering his 2016 campaign.

Right. And like Vance, Mike, he has been on a very long journey of mocking and then trying to reconcile with Trump.

That’s exactly right. I mean, Rubio was the rising star of the Republican Party pre-Trump, the son of Cuban immigrants with a very powerful story of his own bootstraps rise, and was seen as a potential frontrunner for the Republican nomination until Trump showed up on the scene.

He doesn’t sweat because his pores are clogged from the spray tan that he uses.

And Rubio’s response to Trump was pretty wild.

Donald is not going to make America great. He’s going to make America orange.

What Rubio did was basically try to match Trump with schoolyard taunts.

Then he asked for a full-length mirror. I don’t know why, because the podium goes up to here. But he wanted a full-length mirror — [CROWD LAUGHS]

— maybe to make sure his pants weren’t wet. I don’t know.

He went after Trump on the debate stage —

If he builds the wall the way he built Trump Tower, he’ll be using illegal immigrant labor to do it.

[CROWD CHEERS]

— you know, went after his personal life as, you know, the three divorces —

Well, I don’t know anything about bankrupting four companies —

— his multiple bankruptcies, and in pretty colorful language —

So I’m looking at little Marco. And I say, man, there’s something happening with him.

— Trump returned fire even more so and really just demolished Rubio in aggressively personal terms —

And I see him starting to sweat like I have never seen anything like it.

— said how much he was sweating on the stage —

Thank god he has really large ears, the biggest ears I’ve ever seen —

— made fun of his ears, portrayed him as a lightweight who shouldn’t be president, couldn’t go toe to toe with any other foreign leaders, and really set him back politically.

You know, I called him a lightweight. I said at one point he was a lightweight. And I don’t mean to be insulting, but I do describe people somehow well.

I mean, suffice it to say, by the end of the 2016 race, the concept that there could ever be a Trump-Rubio ticket was completely unfathomable.

Yeah, exactly. But what a lot of people don’t realize is that Rubio really repaired that relationship with Trump. Rubio won more votes in his Senate race in Florida than Trump did for president in Florida. And that was oddly important to Trump. He brought that up repeatedly. Trump likes winners, right? And Rubio had won more votes than him. So there must be — he must have missed something.

He invited Rubio over to the White House early on in sort of a charm offensive with Rubio. And in the next few years, Rubio really did become a behind-the-scenes close advisor for Trump on foreign policy and some other areas. And now heading into 2024, Trump trusts him, views him as a valuable ally, and, maybe even more than that, as a pretty effective attack dog.

Right now, with Joe Biden in the White House, our adversaries are going to conclude that there are things they can get away with and they can do because this White House is not strong. They’re not prepared. They’re not even competent. And I fear what that means. This is a big, big problem.

Rubio has gotten very aggressive on television, going after the Biden administration and really the president himself.

If we have another four years of Joe Biden, I don’t know what this country is going to look like, but none of us are going to be happy about it.

Right, clearly no accident because he knows he’s in contention for the VP spot.

Absolutely.

Just to put a fine point on it, you would say yes if you were asked to serve as his vice-presidential nominee?

That would be presumptuous for me. I think anyone who’s offered that job to serve this country in the second-highest office, assuming everything else in your life makes sense at that moment, I mean, why — if you’re interested in serving the country, it’s an incredible place to serve. But we’re getting way ahead —

So Rubio clearly checks off a ton of boxes — TV ready, loyal, attack dog, doesn’t seem to do any harm to the ticket, I’m guessing here. He’s meaningfully older than Vance. Any weaknesses we should make sure to touch on when it comes to Rubio?

Yeah, the risks for Rubio are kind of counterintuitive here. The big thing is that Trump isn’t sure he really wants the job. He has not sat with Trump in the courtroom as others have. He hasn’t become a fixture at the former president’s rallies. He’s not turned himself into furniture at Mar-a-Lago like other Republicans.

This sort of idea that he wants to show Trump he wants the job but not too badly, it’s a strategy with a clear logic here. I mean, again, we talked about protection of Trump’s spotlight. But I’m told — my reporting — is that the strategy has kind of confused Trump. I talked to someone who sat with Trump the other day. And Trump asked him point blank, does Rubio even want the job? That’s not a good look for the Florida Senator.

Fascinating. So the flip side of ‘don’t overshadow me’ is ‘make sure that I feel a sufficient amount of your love.’ And Rubio, so far, hasn’t shown Trump enough love.

That’s exactly right.

OK, I think that brings us now to the third of these contenders.

And probably the least known. This is Doug Burgum, the governor of North Dakota, who would be, if he joins the ticket and wins election, the first vice president from the great state of North Dakota. So who’s Doug Burgum?

[PIANO MUSIC]

Who is Doug Burgum?

Doug Burgum is a kid that grew up in a small town, Arthur, North Dakota — 300 people. The streets weren’t even paved. I mean —

Burgum has amassed his own fortune —

I saw my first computer, and I said, wow, that’s going to change the world.

— by repeatedly building billion-dollar companies, including one he sold to Microsoft.

— had his fantastic run as a public company. Got acquired by Microsoft. And then I joined that team, and I helped build Microsoft.

He’s close friends with the billionaire former executive of Microsoft and has a number of other wealthy, rich tech investors on speed dial. This is important for Trump because he likes having connections to rich people who serve as sort of a validation for Trump. If you’re serving for me, that enhances Trump’s brand and Trump’s self-worth.

Working with President Trump as a governor was like having a beautiful breeze at your back.

I guess I can explain it this way. Trump likes to collect wealthy white men, wealthy white businessmen like they were porcelain dolls.

Who are we going to send back to the White House? Trump! That’s fantastic.

OK, well, besides this rich, white, porcelain dollage that Trump likes, what is it about Burgum that has drawn Trump’s interest in him as a potential VP?

Yeah, Burgum is in his mid-60s, which makes him closer to being a generational peer to Trump, who’s in his late 70s. And Trump likes generational peers. Remember in 2017, the average age of his cabinet was 62 years old, which was one of the oldest of any recent president. And Trump also likes Burgum’s independence, not just financially but politically.

He self-funded his own campaign for governor in 2016. He was an outsider candidate and won that race and his re-election without really any help from Trump or Trump’s political machine. And that’s important to Trump when it comes to who he can trust behind the scenes to tell him what he needs to know. He doesn’t want someone to do that publicly. He doesn’t want to be embarrassed. He doesn’t want to be overshadowed.

But behind the scenes, he does want some back and forth. He does want to hear different points of view. And when you agree with Trump behind the scenes, he wants to know that it’s not because you’re afraid that he might turn against you. Other folks who owe their entire political rise to Trump might have trouble connecting with the former president on that level. The folks I’ve talked to, who’ve been in the room with Burgum and Trump, have told me they have a very easy dynamic. There’s a very clear respect on both sides. And these guys seem to like each other.

Hm, so this is kind of fascinating, Mike. It sounds like one of Burgum’s biggest advantages is that his political career has been pretty independent of Trump. He didn’t start out as a Trump critic, who then needed to bend the knee for his own political survival, in the same way that both Vance and Rubio did.

Instead, Burgum made his way in politics by his own accord. He doesn’t really owe Trump much of anything. And to Trump, that might mean Burgum’s more willing to be candid with him, albeit behind the scenes, not publicly. And on top of all that, he’s older and therefore less of a threat to Trump’s spotlight, less at risk of overshadowing him.

Yeah, that’s exactly right. I would sum up Burgum’s advantages as saying he’s probably, in this group, the safest pick for Trump. But in a weird way, he’s also the biggest wild card. And what I mean by that is he is relatively untested on the national stage, even though he did run for president last year. But that was really a short-lived campaign. If you blinked, you missed it.

And he’s not really been on television as much as Rubio and Vance in recent years. And he is, [CHUCKLES]: you know, to put it generously, not known for thrilling applause lines on the campaign trail. And he has almost eight years in the governor’s office in a very, very Republican state with some very conservative policies that will get dug into by the national media. The big one, I think, is a hugely restrictive abortion law he signed last year as governor. Trump is responsible for overturning Roe versus Wade.

But he sees abortion as a real tough issue for Republicans. And having a running mate who signed a law that bans abortions after six weeks, including no exceptions for rape or incest after six weeks, is going to be a tough one for the ticket in the general election.

So Burgum has a lot of the things that Trump wants in a VP. But the problem would seem to be that he might do some harm to the ticket. And Trump has that “do no harm” rule.

That’s absolutely right. When it comes to Trump’s decision, the former president has a lot of things to think about.

Mike, we’ve been spending all this time talking about what Trump wants in his VP in 2024 and how these three potential contenders fit into that. But what we haven’t talked about, to circle back to the beginning and what Trump did to Mike Pence, is what Trump may ask of these three guys if they were to become his VP and how comfortable these three contenders might be in doing those things.

I mean, everything our colleagues have been reporting so far shows that a second Trump term would involve him testing the bounds of the Constitution. He’s going to seek more power than any president has in modern times. He’s talked about firing anyone in the government bureaucracy who challenges him. He’s talked about turning the Department of Justice into a tool for revenge against his political foes. What does it say about these VP contenders that they want to be the number two in that kind of administration?

To orbit Trump is to put at risk your own personal dignity. And all of these folks are very smart people who understand that. They know that they’re going to be put in some very precarious positions. And they’re going to have to shift their own thinking when it comes to politics, personal pride, and maybe even their legal interpretations of the Constitution.

Right. I think about how many people, Mike, in Trump’s orbit have been charged with a crime for what they did, for example, around January 6th.

Exactly. I mean, there are very few people who have put themselves in service of Trump and have emerged for the better.

[DRUM MUSIC]

All of these top three contenders have been on their own long journey inside the Republican Party to get to where they are now. And to join Trump’s ticket is really an acknowledgment that the old ways of thinking about the Republican Party and republicanism and conservatism are over and that Trump has won. And the reward for that acquiescence is potentially a spot as the number-two Republican in the country and possibly, next year, the number-two position in the most powerful government in the world.

Well, Mike, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

[MUSIC CONTINUES]

Here’s what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, Southern baptists voted to oppose the use of in vitro fertilization. It was an indication that ordinary evangelicals are increasingly open to arguments that equate embryos with human life and that fetal personhood may be the next front for the anti-abortion movement. The resolution against IVF adopted at the Southern baptists’ annual meeting is notable because fertility treatments are widely used by evangelicals.

And officials at the Federal Reserve said they would make a single cut to interest rates this year, suggesting that they are in no hurry to lower historically high borrowing costs. The Fed continues to believe that high interest rates, which remain above 5 percent, are the best weapon against inflation because they slow spending by both consumers and businesses.

Today’s episode was produced by Rob Szypko, Stella Tan, and Carlos Prieto, with help from Jessica Cheung and Nina Feldman. It was edited by Rachel Quester, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Rowan Niemisto, and Diane Wong, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

• June 21, 2024   •   33:22 America’s Top Doctor on Why He Wants Warning Labels on Social Media
• June 20, 2024   •   30:15 The Mysterious Gun Study That’s Advancing Gun Rights
• June 18, 2024   •   32:00 A Novel Legal Strategy for Mass Shooting Victims’ Families
• June 17, 2024   •   25:41 Abortion United Evangelicals and Republicans. Now That Alliance Is Fraying.
• June 14, 2024   •   34:50 How to Retire as Early as Humanly Possible
• June 13, 2024   •   31:20 Inside Trump’s Search for a Vice President
• June 12, 2024   •   27:55 The Criminal Conviction of Hunter Biden
• June 11, 2024   •   24:11 Biden’s Hard-Line Effort to Close the Border
• June 10, 2024   •   33:44 The Rise and Fall of Congestion Pricing in New York
• June 7, 2024   •   30:00 Real Teenagers, Fake Nudes: The Rise of Deepfakes in American Schools
• June 6, 2024   •   23:38 The Fight Over the Next Pandemic
• June 5, 2024   •   30:42 Biden’s Push to End the War in Gaza

Hosted by Michael Barbaro

Featuring Michael C. Bender

Produced by Rob Szypko ,  Stella Tan and Carlos Prieto

With Jessica Cheung and Nina Feldman

Edited by Rachel Quester

Original music by Marion Lozano ,  Diane Wong and Rowan Niemisto

Engineered by Alyssa Moxley

Listen and follow The Daily Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube

The makeup of the 2024 presidential race has felt inevitable from the start — with one notable exception: Donald J. Trump’s choice of a running mate.

Michael Bender, a political correspondent for The Times, explains why Mr. Trump’s requirements in a No. 2 are very different this time round than they were eight years ago.

On today’s episode

Michael Bender , a political correspondent for The New York Times.

Background reading

Here is a comprehensive look at who is in the mix to be Mr. Trump’s running mate.

Ben Carson is a wild card in the vice-presidential sweepstakes, but don’t count him out just yet.

There are a lot of ways to listen to The Daily. Here’s how.

We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.

Michael C. Bender contributed reporting.

The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, John Ketchum, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Summer Thomad, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson, Nina Lassam and Nick Pitman.

Michael C. Bender is a Times political correspondent covering Donald J. Trump, the Make America Great Again movement and other federal and state elections. More about Michael C. Bender

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Brodie Grundy's journey from Collingwood heartache, chasing flags with Melbourne, to becoming one of Sydney's 'Bloods'

Sport Brodie Grundy's journey from Collingwood heartache, chasing flags with Melbourne, to becoming one of Sydney's 'Bloods'

When Melbourne was bundled out of last year's finals series in straight sets after a crushing loss to Carlton, Brodie Grundy couldn't do anything but watch, having fallen out of favour with Simon Goodwin.

After becoming a two-time All-Australian and signing a lucrative deal he thought would see him play out the remainder of his career at Collingwood, Grundy's career trajectory had suddenly gone from heading towards the Australian Football Hall of Fame to ending up with VFL minutes en-route to an unceremonious retirement. 

Nine months on from helplessly watching Melbourne's finals exit, Grundy is back playing a key role in a premiership contender. 

His arrival at Sydney has revitalised the Swans, who are sitting pretty at the top of the ladder with a 11-1 record heading into Round 14 and look like unbackable premiership favourites at this stage of the season. 

Grundy is back to playing some of his best football as well, averaging 18.9 disposals and 31.2 hit-outs to go along with 5.2 clearances per game through his first 12 appearances with the Swans.

While the lows of the past two years were admittedly difficult for Grundy to deal with, he is appreciative of the journey, having now come out the other side. 

"I think I probably have dealt with things better than I would've thought. I've still got my head screwed on and a big part of that is having an identity away from football," he told ABC Sport.

" Obviously we care so deeply about what we do and we put so much time, energy and effort into our craft, so when there's a gap between where we want to be and where we really are, that can be uncomfortable. I've just learnt to navigate that. That was the biggest thing I've learnt. 

"It's easy to say there's more to my life than football when you're a two-time All-Australian, and then you start to feel less valued, less worthy and you start to think, 'Shit'. 

"Having those experiences really changed my philosophy and that was a really interesting time for me personally to unpack whether that was something I still held, that view.

"I think now, having gone through what I've gone through, it's reflective of a real career. I think most players, if they're in it as long as I've been, they've been injured, they've had success, been traded, they've been out of form and in the twos, so I feel like it puts me in a good space to be able to relate to anyone on the list. 

"It probably has made me a better leader and probably deepened my sense of empathy because I know what it's like."

'We could win four flags': How bizarre Melbourne chapter came about

Just two seasons after penning a seven-year extension, Grundy's deal went from being seen as a coup by Collingwood to a deal that handicapped the club's ability to add talent to its list. 

Collingwood soared to a shock preliminary final appearance in 2022 largely without an injured Grundy, and the writing was on the wall for the big man. 

Grundy and Melbourne captain Max Gawn had both steadily developed into the two best ruckmen in the game over the half-decade leading into his extension, so the then-Collingwood star was shocked when Gawn's team came calling. Prior to the move being finalised, Grundy caught up with his great ruck rival to discuss their union.

"I was really surprised that they were even interested in my services to begin with," he recalled.

"Going to Melbourne, there was an element of, 'Can this work?'. It was so crazy, but what if it does, it could be epic. Part of that was really exciting. 

"We caught up for breakfast when I was keen, but we probably needed to unpack that in retrospect a little deeper. 

"It was a pretty similar pitch (to Sydney) in terms of all the key figures being in a room at the same time and the cards were on the table that this was going to be the strategy and it was so crazy that it could work. We just thought, 'Well what if it does?'. 

"The vision that we were going for was like we could win four flags and be the best ruck partnership the game has ever seen, but obviously that relies on one of us being a good forward.

"That's the thing with strategy and vision, it can change and it's not fixed in time, and it is strategy, at the end of the day you need to implement it. 

"The implementation is where we came unstuck. I wasn't thriving and Max wasn't thriving."

With the benefit of hindsight, Grundy realises now that moving to Melbourne when he did was the "safe" option. 

"I wasn't really in a position to move interstate, we were really settled in Melbourne and obviously the intention was to be in Melbourne. We'd just brought our family home and were really settled there," he said.

"That's another thing I learnt now going through it a second time, when you play it safe and move across the road to Melbourne and it's easy, it doesn't necessarily turn out to be what's best. 

"On both parties, we went in with rosy glasses on thinking this would all work out really well. I do believe there were best intentions there from both parties, but (with) the strategic fit it just became pretty clear that wasn't going to work and ultimately I had to take the brunt of the outcome, and that would mean the twos."

Despite the move to Melbourne not panning out as Grundy had hoped, with premiership glory, he doesn't hold any ill-will towards the Demons.

"The culture that Melbourne has is really high-performing in terms of the standards they set, the work ethic, and I'm really grateful to have gotten a glimpse of what it's like in that side," he said.

"When I went down into the twos, I did attempt to really give it a go and buy in, but ultimately it was going to prove pretty difficult for the next four years that I had left on my contract for both me and the club to be really happy with the deal. 

"It was a really mature response to be able to sit down at the end and have transparent conversations, putting our cards on the table and saying, 'Hey, is this still working?' They obviously could've kept me, but I'm really grateful that they allowed me to seek that trade."

Dealing with missing out on Collingwood's premiership win

While Grundy was sat in the stands or at home watching Melbourne get bundled out of the finals last year, in a cruel blow, he was forced to watch many of his old Collingwood teammates go on and win a premiership a few weeks later.

For a player who had dreamed of being a Magpie for life, it was a bitter pill to swallow for Grundy, especially after coming within a kick of winning a premiership in 2018.

Despite not being able to secure a flag during his time at Collingwood, Grundy doesn't see his 177-game tenure with the Magpies as a failure.

"Giving 10 years to a cause deeply committing to that, yeah, you want to ultimately come through, shape that journey and ultimately get the prize, but sometimes that doesn't happen," he said.

"It doesn't mean that it wasn't a success or it doesn't mean that you didn't learn anything. That's probably one of the things I've learnt through my career. 

"I've been a little bit shocked at times listening to legends that I've either been coached by or played with saying they question their career if they didn't win a premiership.

"Yes, I didn't win a premiership there but I came pretty close in 2018, but it doesn't mean that wasn't a successful stint for me. I learnt a lot and I think I helped contribute to the culture of the club for the time I was there. 

"I was obviously really happy for my ex-teammates … but you're not a part of that and it's just the reality."

Grundy revealed how Collingwood's premiership win hadn't hurt him as much as he anticipated, simply because he expected it to happen the year before, when he was still at the club but unable to play through injury. 

The 30-year-old explained how his fiance Rachael had egged him on to prepare for the possibility of Collingwood winning a flag.

"I'd felt and I was sort of prepared for them to win a flag the year before when I was injured," he said.

"I was preparing mentally that they were going to be really successful and I wasn't going to be a part of it, and I was surprised they didn't make the grand final in my last year there. So I had 18 months to compartmentalise that I wasn't going to be a part of that.

"They were so f*****g good (in 2022) and I've got my PCL and then I come back and I've got a fractured ankle. I'd be watching the games at home and it was probably harder for me that year, to be honest. 

"It does take a while to detach from the Collingwood cause when you're there for so long and you're deeply wedded to it. 

"It probably would've been harder if they'd won it the year before, so what Tay (Adams) went through, that's incredibly difficult. 

"We'd be watching at home and I'd have my knee brace on and I'd have all these emotions and she (Grundy's fiance) was like, 'Brodie, you need to prepare that this team will be in the grand final. This team could win it, and you need to prepare yourself'."

Move to Sydney and role in evolution of 'Bloods' culture

Having admitted to taking the "safe" option to go to the Demons, 12 months later, Grundy was prepared to do far more due diligence on his next move. 

"It really came down to me having to get this next decision right and probably learning from what didn't work last year," he recalled.

"It just spoke to how important strategic fit is. It doesn't matter if it's in sport or business, if you have an asset or a person and they have strengths and capabilities and if they don't fit and merge well, it's going to be dysfunctional."

Grundy met with the Swans brass featuring John Longmire, Tom Harley, Charlie Gardiner and said he was "blown away" with the club's pitch to him. 

However, he needed to go away and come up with some questions of his own to ask the club before fully committing.

"It was one thing to go there and have an excellent pitch, but then you go away and consider some deeper questions and follow up on that," he said.

"I was just asking John deeper questions about the club, the team, his style of coaching and what he needs from me like, 'What do you think you're getting? Do you think you're getting a forward?'

"I was probably more forthright this time in terms of who I am and what I could bring and just pretty straight up in terms of (saying), 'This is what you're getting', and they were just like, 'Dude, we really want that'. But then it's just making sure that is realistic, and either way I looked at it, it was a pretty good match."

Twelve games into his career with the Swans, Grundy says he "hasn't been let down at all" by what the club has offered him so far.

The Swans are widely considered to be one of the most well-run football clubs in the AFL, and perhaps one of the best-run organisations in Australian sport in general. 

Much of the lure around the club is centred around its famous 'Bloods' culture. It's a culture that Grundy is admittedly still learning. 

"I'd say I'm still learning about that culture and what it means to be a 'Blood'," he said.

"When I came into the AFL, I was heavily influenced by Michael O'Loughlin, Brett Kirk, (and) Tom Harley was my mentor in the AIS AFL Academy. Matthew Lloyd was in that as well, but largely it was like a miniature Swans academy when I look back. 

"The central theme of that program was all about creating good people, and if you happened to be a good football player … that was just an extra bonus. It was very strong on having good character and representing yourself, your family and the game in a high regard."

Having now joined Sydney, Grundy is thrilled to see the themes from his days at the AIS AFL Academy translating across to the Swans. 

As one of the elder statesmen in the team, Grundy is surrounded by some of the league's brightest young stars. Every week he is surrounded by what is arguably the best midfield trio in the league in Isaac Heeney, Errol Gulden and Chad Warner. 

While the traditional 'Bloods' culture has emphasised simply putting your head down and working hard, these young stars are infusing the club with a little bit of swagger. 

"I've come at an exciting time where we're trying to preserve our history and legacy as a really tough, resilient, hard-working football side while evolving with a new generation of players coming through and figuring out what that looks like," Grundy said.

"We're asking ourselves questions like, 'Is this still the best way of working?', and I think any style, culture or team, in football or not, if you keep asking yourselves those questions and hold a mirror up to yourself, usually the outcome is really positive."

Now at his third club, Grundy is glad to be part of the culture at Sydney, where players are encouraged to be entirely themselves.

"Obviously starting at a new club again, this pre-season straight away you could get a sense that these young guys want to enjoy it as well," he said.

"That was probably the biggest thing (that has stood out), post-game and during the week just stopping and smelling the roses and really loving and enjoying what we do. 

"That probably aligns with me the most in terms of what I'm trying to do playing AFL, obviously having that perspective and that gratitude for the position that we're in. This Swans side and the young guys that we have really take that to the next level. 

"Those first five to 10 minutes after the game they're playing some music, having a dance and really enjoying that, and I haven't really seen that sort of celebration before.

"If you create a space where everyone feels they can contribute and bring the best version of themselves, then that's going to be really additive to performance. 

"That's why I think unpacking the values of the club and what people stand for and trying to cultivate an environment that is safe and inclusive for everyone is really important. That really translates to team success. 

"It's new for the Swans, but we're trying to explore a deeper connection off-field and how we can continue to support one another both on and off the field."

Having gone through the ultimate rollercoaster during the past five years, Grundy is now back where he always wanted to be, contributing both on and off the field for a top-class organisation.

"I'm just happy to be where I am and still playing footy and enjoying it because there was a time there at Melbourne where I was playing in the VFL and as our minds tend to do, the anxious thoughts came in like, 'What if I'm like this for the next two or three years?'

"That was just a risk I wasn't willing to take because I don't want to die with the music still in me.

"It just comes back to what you can control and letting go and accepting. 

"I don't really regret anything in my career and everything happens for a reason and it just makes for a really cool story if I come through the other side and get what I'm after in terms of team success.

"It just feels good being back where I feel like I needed to be."

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